Homepage Badaga Community Forum Index FAQ Search Usergroups Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in Register
Badaga Community
Welcome to Badaga community forum
View next topic
View previous topic
Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
bjaypee
Frequent poster


Joined: 01 Aug 2001
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Badagas under Schedule Tribes ???

There is already a similar thread started by SANTHOSH under Badaga Caste in Bangalore

BUT I FEEL THIS TOPIC "BADAGAS UNDER ST" IS A SERIOUS ISSUE" . It deserves the consideration and participation of all Badagas especially the younger generation who will decide the fate of this nation as well as the community.

I have very strong views on this subject. Before I elaborate on them, I feel that we should ,first of all, be identified as BADAGAS which is not the case as SANTHOSH has rightly mentioned in his thread “. . our community’s name is not in the list of communities under the BC category. In fact, it is not mentioned under any of the categories.”

I also agree with the views of ‘bhojvija’ who feels that “…Badagas living in cities and doing/completed education in cities and are upper middle class family and for them it’s not at all a matter if Badagas are non ST. But we have to talk about our entire badaga community. For example an SC/ST guy simply getting govt job if he passed just degree. And government providing more facilities like scholarship, free hostel, books, notebooks etc… In our community so many have stopped their education due to lack of economical support and their entire life style also has been changed as they have to work just as ordinary labourers…. “.

Most of us feel that getting ST status is demeaning and meant mainly for getting admissions to educational institutions and getting jobs easily. The truth could be entirely different


Image

Even in our own district of the Nilgirs, do you know that we are not taken as a separate community as BADAGAS but are clubbed with other non tribals??? That is one of the reasons why the exact number of Badags is not available? When census is taken Badags are clubbed under Kannadigas / others.

I am afraid ,if this sad state of affair continues, after a few years, we will come under the “extinct” community.

Being from an above average family and/or having done professional studies of engineering and business administration etc and lived/living in big cities like Delhi, Bangalore & Madras one may not have had an occasion to use the caste tag of BC [Badaga] but....

BUT.. yes this a big but [no pun intended]…

WHEN I VISIT AND INTERACT WITH OUR PEOPLE IN OUR HATTIS ON A REGULAR BASIS, I AM CONVINCED THAT FOR THE UPLIFTMENT OF OUR COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE (as opposed to city based creamy layers) THERE IS AN URGENT NEED THAT :

1. First, we should be identified as a separate group as BADAGAS like Todas, Kothas,Kurumas etc when the people(tribes) of the Nilgiris are referred to.

2. For the larger good of the community, Badagas should get the ST status for the benefits available are too many to go into detail.


Nearly eighty years back, Nakku Betta Leader, Rao Bahadur (Rao Sahib then) Bellie Gowder on whose invitation the Governor of then Madras Province visited Hubbathalai Village was presented a memorandum on the Hill Tribes of Nilgiris which included Badagas, Todas & Kothas. In a grand cultural show organised on that eve Badaga dance was presented [by school boys] in their ‘DODDA KUPPACHA”.

Rao Bahadur Bellie Gowder, incidetally, was not only the leader of Badagas but represented as leader of all the tribes of Nilgiris (a relatively remote hilly & jungle area and unexplored at that time).

What do you think?

_________________
Wg Cdr JP - http://www.badaga.wordpress.com , http://www.baduga.in , www.badaga.name

Last edited by bjaypee on Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:10 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website
sivakumar_jm
Occasional poster


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:02 am Reply with quoteBack to top

For the larger good of the community, Badagas should get the ST status for the benefits available are too many to go into detail.

VERY TRUE.

The following is my personal opinion.
For those who think that we are an upper class and don't need to be classified as scheduled tribe...here is my question.

If you think you are an upper class and well off, why don't you help those who are under poverty and are struggling in life? Where's your LOVE ? And why do you always disappear when the community needs help and argue only you need the magic word called ' Status' ?
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailYahoo MessengerMSN Messenger
deva_mathan
Frequent poster


Joined: 31 Dec 1998
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well are we as Badagas, really want to be known as SC/STs merely for the sake of Government posting that is in the class iV grade levels ? Is this because that we do not want to put our efforts but look up for cozy job with Pensions ?

Let us assume we have that status: How many of our people will get posted in such jobs ? A Handful. The very fact that we do not know our own rights, we gave opportunities to 'OUTSIDERS' represent Nilgiri District as MLAs/MPs. Is this all our capabilities ?

Recently I witnessed One Kannadiga, purchased ' Cultivation Land' right in the heart of a Hatti and keep engaing Badagas/ and Cyelon people for work. What a shame for us ! OR what a innovative investment by him !

Where our Hard working forefathers' life style have gone? Have we become weak persons ? Though several of our people have established themseleves in field like Engineering, Medicine, Research, Police, Accounts. and Administration still there is a gap.

The problem, I am afraid to say, that we started looking for easy money. I witnessed from closed quarters, that whenever something is given as gift, we shamelessly ask for more. What a begging attitude ?!?.

The have ones would like to lazy around and look for sponsorship for 'QUARTER' at the local Tasmac. The havenots made an an attitude not different from their counterparts.

Looting by in-laws in the name of marriage is also become common. Taking shelters with in-laws also to be seen and spreading.

Does getting SC/ST status is degrading our thinking level also ?! In this rate, we will not be able to gover ourself.

Pl give a thought.

_________________
Devarajan Mathan-
deva_mathan@yahoo.com
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's websiteYahoo Messenger
sivakumar_jm
Occasional poster


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Well are we as Badagas, really want to be known as SC/STs merely for the sake of Government posting that is in the class iV grade levels ?


Well, come one Sir..We are in the 2007 century now...can we please get rid of the caste feelings that brahman, other castes are better than the lower tribes or castes. I have no idea why some people still feel that they are superior because of the caste tag.

Quote:
Let us assume we have that status: How many of our people will get posted in such jobs ? A Handful.


Really ? This isn't a fact.

I have been out of village for the past 10 years, but based on what I heard , most of badagas are moving out of villages nowadays and are in desperate need of help.

Quote:
The very fact that we do not know our own rights, we gave opportunities to 'OUTSIDERS' represent Nilgiri District as MLAs/MPs. Is this all our capabilities ?

How is this related to the topic being discussed ?

Quote:
Recently I witnessed One Kannadiga, purchased ' Cultivation Land' right in the heart of a Hatti and keep engaing Badagas/ and Cyelon people for work. What a shame for us ! OR what a innovative investment by him !


Well if that is your opinion..here is mine....
I don't think Badagas are lazy. Infact most of them are hard working and willing to work. There are a very few exceptions.

The problem is they don't have the financial support to purchase cultivation land in large scale...And agriculture in small scale doesn't work anymore. The agriculture days have gone and we will have to change our lifestyle (move on and not depend on agriculture)...

Quote:
What a begging attitude ?!?.

Thats a very improper word to use in here in this context. If thats the word you want to use - > Begging isn't always bad. Begging for a non-profit cause is good, similarly begging to get education is acceptable bacause it does good for the society. Begging is bad only when its done on purpose and if the person is not willing to work.

Quote:
Though several of our people have established themseleves in field like Engineering, Medicine, Research, Police, Accounts. and Administration still there is a gap.


This is true, there is no small gap. There is a "very big" gap. Only a few have become professionals and its time to convert our remaining brothers and sisters to get into good education and professional fields.

Why don't we be practical here....
1. Help those who are in need of help (this isn't happenning for the past 20 years)
2. Let us have the ST status, so that the ones who are in need of help, will atleast get the help from the government .

Since (1) is not happenning, (2) is the only option.....This is my personal opinion.....

Thank you
Siva
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailYahoo MessengerMSN Messenger
deva_mathan
Frequent poster


Joined: 31 Dec 1998
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Dear Gentleman Sivakumar,

As you posed questions, I am morally bound to give you my thoughts/answers. It is plainely a debate but not a dig.

Quote:
Well, come one Sir..We are in the 2007 century now...can we please get rid of the caste feelings that brahman, other castes are better than the lower tribes or castes. I have no idea why some people still feel that they are superior because of the caste tag
. I have noted brahmins do not entertain us to their houses. AT the best to their front room. But I happend to dine with them in their house on several occasions, merely because of my professionsl links.

No one is superior to others. The adage goes, one does not belong to the caste/class by birth but by action.

Action alone will propell us to altitude we want.

Quote:

Really ? This isn't a fact.

I have been out of village for the past 10 years, but based on what I heard , most of badagas are moving out of villages nowadays and are in desperate need of help
.

I agree. WE have lands where we don't want to work, but go out seeking employment. Naturally there will be migration.

I have seen one person, leased his land to one ceylon person, saying it is difficult to do farming. This ceylon guy pays him Rs about Rs 10000/ for about 5cents of land per year. Is not Ceylon person earning more than Rs 10000/- ?. This Ceylon guy goes to bank to deposit his money . Any guess where the 'OWNER' of the land going. ?


Sure agriculture is not viable in small scale. Can we not think of collective farming ? I would be happy if you happen to read Co-operative farming in Maharashtra. These farmers do not allow any politician into their society to interfere.

What is a success story of Amul? Most of the cattle owners have one/two cattle heads. They are happy by AMUL movement. Why not we.

Quote:
How is this related to the topic being discussed ?


Why Prabhu, a Coimbatorean need to represent us as an MP. Look into OOty roads. ? How many years ? What has been done. We must represent this has badaga movement to Assemble and parliment. We voted to them without even asking what they are going to contributing to us. Is this our ignorance.?

I would like to quote Rajasthan example where, the villagers dug check dams and canals without government for their cultivation and drinking needs. PL read How president Abdul Kalam personally met them and did some donations. Help will flow when we initiate. We have a starting trouble. For every little need we want to look to some one.

Quote:
Well if that is your opinion..here is mine....
I don't think Badagas are lazy. Infact most of them are hard working and willing to work. There are a very few exceptions
.

WE have a tendency to expect support from others. Quick Money with less effort. Each activity be it agriculture , projects have its own time to be effectve. When recently DMK govt cancelled agriculture loan, I heard people discussing, if the govt will cancel loans for house construction in cities. At the same time few agricultural big shots manage to get larger tea board subsidiary amount and bursted crackers for 1 lakh Rs/.

Quote:
The problem is they don't have the financial support to purchase cultivation land in large scale...And agriculture in small scale doesn't work anymore. The agriculture days have gone and we will have to change our lifestyle (move on and not depend on agriculture)...


Sure, we need to move on. But how many will? Recently I managed to get a job for one who was unemployed over 7 years. He was not willing to take that job, but would like to roam around. I am writing real incidences.

Another wanted a job just be sending his resume with concoted experience. Look at few columns in our website. Couple of them simply say "working.".

Quote:
Thats a very improper word to use in here in this context. If thats the word you want to use - > Begging isn't always bad. Begging for a non-profit cause is good, similarly begging to get education is acceptable bacause it does good for the society. Begging is bad only when its done on purpose and if the person is not willing to work.


There is no need to be offended. It is plain simple thought. REcently one chap wanted me to get him a drink. I told him I would prefer to give him 5 Kgs Of Rice and some provisions. He spurs the option. He wants to find happiness by drinking at my expense. I don't say drinking is good / bad. But why asking some one else.

Another brothern says he is drinking because he has lot of worries. I only wonder how drinking will stop his worries. Does he mean under alcohol influence his worries are gone and will be back when he is awake.

Quote:

This is true, there is no small gap. There is a "very big" gap. Only a few have become professionals and its time to convert our remaining brothers and sisters to get into good education and professional fields.


Agreed. We cannot have large growth over night. But, out attitude will determine the altitude. We cannot be underqualified and expect well paid job.
Quote:

Why don't we be practical here....
1. Help those who are in need of help (this isn't happenning for the past 20 years)


Do you mean to say no one helped others? Statistics / examples will be more supporting than a generalised statement.

I tried to get a job. I wanted the applicant to make few corrections in the resume. Lo behold. This person says his application covering letter reading
... I hv gud experience ...." [ only one example ] He argues he is gud(?!) at english. I can only pray god to help him.

Quote:
Let us have the ST status, so that the ones who are in need of help, will atleast get the help from the government .

Since (1) is not happenning, (2) is the only option.....This is my personal opinion.....


I am not against the thought. I opine the benefits will be very less.

How many will get jobs by such conversion ?. I am trying to be realistic that barely a handful. Instead we should upgrade our skills to whatever extent is possible.

Well, Dear Mr Sivakumar, It is a thought for more open discussions. We need to be more introspecting.

I am concerned if I am sounding bitter.

_________________
Devarajan Mathan-
deva_mathan@yahoo.com
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's websiteYahoo Messenger
bjaypee
Frequent poster


Joined: 01 Aug 2001
Posts: 198

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

What OTHERS have to say on this : http://www.aarvees.com/aarvees/nilgiris/people.asp

Quote:

BADAGAS OF NILGIRIS

It is ironic that despite extensive research on them by western scholars, the Badagas are little known outside the Nilgiris. Even the vague perception swings widely from the Badagas being rich tea estate owners to one among the obscure tribes on the hills. The Badagas used to be called a tribe in the past but they are not one according to anthropologists, who prefer to call them a 'community'. In any case, they are not a Scheduled Tribe or a Scheduled Caste. Interestingly, it was the Badagas themselves who refused to allow the community to be included under the Scheduled Tribes, along with the other tribes of the Nilgiris, when the commission empowered to identify such groups visited the Nilgiris in the 50s. However, of late economic compulsions have forced the Badagas to represent to the central government to include them under the Scheduled Tribes.

The British kept a count of them and the other tribes right from 1812 when there were only 2207 Badagas. At the turn of the century(1901) there were 34176 of them and by the 1971 census their numbers increased to 1,04,392. After that the Census data thoughtlessly clubbed the Badagas with Kannadigas leaving the population of Badagas to speculation.

Considering the fact that there has been a spontaneous tendency towards small family norms among the present generation of Badagas, the safe guess for the Badaga numbers now would be about 150000 spread over some 370 hamlets. As a matter of fact, the Badagas can do a head count of their own in a matter of weeks but, as with many aspects of the community which cries out for collective initiative, no one seems to be bothered


_________________
Wg Cdr JP - http://www.badaga.wordpress.com , http://www.baduga.in , www.badaga.name
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's website
rajkumar
Starter


Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Dear members,
An interesting and serious topic suggested by Wg CdR JP and some sensitive steamy feelings from others.
The ST issue is a three fold one:
1) Egoistic feeling;
remember we (actually our forefathers) had rejected this offer in 1950's when the government wanted us to have it, obviously our fathers and grandfathers felt we were culturally and economically more forward. Having 4 tea bushes & 4 annas made them ignore education(save a few). They had no idea that in 50 years their grandchildren would be forced to read & write and actually work (there are true incidents about some of our brothers from certain part of Nilgiris who used to take a jeep to CBE for a haircut during prime tea rates in the late 80's and early 90's). Although it maybe embarassing to some the current economic situation of badagas will make them lump their ego (maybe another fifty years down the line if we mange to survive and overcome this backwardness our feelings may take another turn for good or bad!!!!)
2) Will the government permit it?
It is not an easy task as the government does not want to set precedents. Other communities will start asking for the same and (as one of the members rightly pointed out) we do not have (cannot be bothered to elect one of our own) powerful politicians to lobby for us both in the state & central government.
3) Will we make use of it?
If a miracle did happen and we managed to get the ST status, how many of our people will make use of it? The answer to this question lies in the current situation. We are classified under BC's in Tamilnadu (not Open quota) and only more than a handful have made it count (I do not have the exact statistics but looking in the badaga website for professionals is a rough estimate). These are the people who would have achieved success at any cost.
What makes these people different from the rest? Lack of awareness, proper education, support & encouragement dents the confidence resulting in discontinued education, unemployment and poverty.This is then handed down to the next generation. What this means is that our attitude towards survival and progress needs to be very aggressive. It is no coincidence that the majority of the success stories are from economically stronger backgrounds. Last year when I visited my hatty, I was pleased to see the children travelling (and parents taking the effort and making sacrifices to send them) few kms to a decent school than the local primary (no disrespect to the local primary as they are not funded nor geared up to handle modern needs). Certainly the current economic situation has played a part in the change but my fear is whether this change will gather rapid momentum and lift most of the badagas economically?
My arguments calls for a change in attitude than caste status. If we get the ST status it is a bonus but we shouldn't blame the lack of it for our poor growth, economy and wellbeing. Education is the key (people who want to practise agriculture can do so after obtaining a BSc or BE in Agri which will certainly improve productivity and will also give the person motivation and insight to educate his/her children). My other suggestion is give our girls and womenfolk (especially in the hatties) more access to education and the respect they deserve. Some of them have shown more awareness,intelligence and insight (than their counterparts) from supporting their families to family planning programmes. As the saying goes 'educate a man and you have provided him a livelihood, educate a woman and you have provided the family a livelihood'. Maybe this may sort many other problems in the community (including the poor attendance in the bank and increased attendance in the local arrack shop).
Comments, criticisms and debates invited.
Dr K.Rajkumar
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
balamurali_n
Starter


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

To supplement your points. Is there anything which I(Thinking what I can do to my community rather than the community doing to me) can start of doing. The plan I had earlier is to donate for education of kids especially girls and women. Can I call upon people to discuss (and more on real work than jus discussion) on the same. Say if we can start of educating one poor student with good marks for higher studies like BE. I think we have made a real difference to the student.

Thanks,
Murali.
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
deva_mathan
Frequent poster


Joined: 31 Dec 1998
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks to Wg Cmds Bbejaypee and Dr Raj Kumars' thoughts and points

An addendum to WgCmdr's statistics

In the year 1812 there were 2207 strength per then senses in 1902 - 34, 176 , in 1971 the strength was 104,392. In 1981 badagas strength were merged with Kannadigas and as of now about 1,50,000 in 370 'hatties' . Some other information says about 463 hamlets Hatties [ That's to be seen ]

'Badaga' in kannada means ' Northener' - Who hailed from north. Mysore Plains is north of the district and hence 'Badagas'

In 1603 when an italian Priest visted 'Nilgiris', then there were badaga Villages.

Origin of the Badagas

The badagas have been considered to be of Adi Dravida origin even thoughthe language spoken is close to Dravidian but it is also disputed that their customs, cultural aspects are distinct and not closely related to other Ethnic Groups hence their origins are in debate.

Natives of the Nilgiris
Of late the theory put forth by leading scholars have strongly criticised the migration theory and have said that the badagas are natives of the Nilgiris. Philology states that in the beginning languages existed without scripts and only later scripts were developed. Hence this seems to be a justification that the badagas were completely an indegenous people to due to the absence in their script, but an ancient indegenous group would have a higher population or would have been completely extinct which questions the validity of this theory.With regard to religion, prior to converting to Hinduism the badagas were nature worshippers, even today worship stones with nature being a central theme can be found in the Nilgiris, Nature worship suggests that the badagas like the ancient Greeks and the Egyptians were an ancient ethnic group.

The European Connection
Others state that the badagas have migrated from Central/East Europe. It is justified that the Badaga ethnic group from Central/East Europe for survival had to accept the local language after migration to southern India and then to the Nilgiri Hills (the nilgiris then belonged to the Vijayanagara Empire), hence the dialect of Kannada. The badagas hence adopted the language for verbal communication and did not accept the Script as it was Foreign to them. The date of the second migration from present Karnataka is probably said to be around 1500 AD - 1600 AD. The population vs time graph indicates that the original badagas were just a handful of about 15 - 30 persons. However the European migration theory has no credible evidence but still under debate.
Genomic Studies i.e a Y-chromosome DNA marker test on the badagas have resulted in the badagas belonging to the broader R1a and specifically R1a1 Haplogroup. A good percentage of people in Central Europe,East Europe,Scandinavia and the people of Punjab also belong to this R1a1 Haplogroup. Hence this has been suggestive of the fact that the badagas are of an Eurasian origin.
The other Ethnic group from southern India which belongs to the R1a1 haplogroup are the Kodava whose customs and cultural aspects for centuries have been said to be related to the Badagas.
Nevertheless, the origin of the Badagas is still under question. But, their economic growth has been well documented

Now let us get to the subject of development san SC/ST:

I would like to differ from Dr Rajkumar -

Our forefather's did not thought their generations need to read and grow. This is not a fact from my own example.

My Grand father is widowed when my father [ 3 brothers] were very young. He barely had any money and land worth. However, he pledged to educate my fathers [ 6th Std - Known as 2nd form - then] was very good and College [ Mostly English learning - History, etc] was considered pinnacle of education.

My father happend to do FA [ Fellow of Arts ] and then BA BT in the later years and became School Head master.

I am emphasiing the grit of my Grandfather. I never knew him. [ I was told he was known for his impartial Judgenment were a pointer of weighing scale would take a beat ]. There must have been several such foresighted parents.

Besides, the earlier generations learnt the art of hardworking and self sustaining, which perhaps, we must take with a picnh of salt -it is missing. Nevertheless, there are people who are swimming againt current. The mere spreading in various areas like Teaching, Engineering, Medicine, Defence and Legal fields are examples at one side and Lazy & Cozy at other end at Hatties.

My few thoughts are :

1. As Badagas. we must first take a resolve that, we will send our own represnetatives to Assembly and Parliament. This person should really lobby for our community. We must every year ask some minimum development for each areas like water, road, Schools etc.

2. Eduacted ones shpuld from a group in their city of work and be guiding force to new bloods who needs guidance for better education. Their news be spreaded in respective Villages and local Badaga Association.

3. The CSI College in Ketti be expanded with Badaga Participation [ Share holding by Rich and Broad Minded ones ] and infuse quality education

4. The Sproting Public Schools in OOty were the Local land is taken should have some percentage of seats fpor Badagas, preferably with some concession.

5. The farming & Cattle breeding in Small scale is not viable anymore. Collective farming in the name of Co-Operative society for overall growth.

6. Local people should not depend upon POliticians & Government for development. Let us first ensure water is available in the streets by pipe. This will give lot of time for ladies so that they can participate for other activities, than doing it as full time job.

Let us debate and do brain storming rather than telling every thing is 'Nethiya Barae' Let us draft our own New 'Barae'

_________________
Devarajan Mathan-
deva_mathan@yahoo.com
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's websiteYahoo Messenger
rajkumar
Starter


Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks for the comments from Mr Murali & Mr Devraj Mathan.

Dear Mr Murali, I deeply appreciate your noble and samaritan thoughts but I feel there are not enough mechanisms in place for safe delivery of your money unless you personally take efforts and responsibility to identify and support the person in need. Instead some of the suggestions by Mr Mathan appears to hold more ground (like the CSI ketti institution).

Dear Mr Mathan, I agree that there were some foresighted forefathers in the 50's but I wouldn't say it as several.The numbers would have picked up in the sixties and seventies which is being reflected in the current levels of professionals.
Your suggestions about political representation and educational oppurtunities are spot on .
My thoughts about the way to approach these issues in a democratic setup are:
1) develop awareness and the importance of badaga votes to remain unified. A Badaga Development Organisation / Trust should be set up initially and all men & women of voting age be encouraged to enroll as members and generous donations has to be encouraged. Volunteers and others with political aspirations and experience (should be certainly have a degree in order to be a role model and also be trsutworthy) should be encouraged to take up leadership resposibilities. Once we know that our votes will not split , we can confidently move to the next stage i.e transition into a political force.
2) Once the other key parties realise that our candidate will always win, we can start calling the shots. We can then start lobbying and negotiating for development of basic infrastructure for the community and things will start falling into place.
Although this looks easy on paper it needs extreme hardwork and dedication. Generous donations, volunteers to take up propagating and spreading the message in all hatties are few of the hardships that will be encountered. The current situation is ideal to start unifying the community.
3) Subsequently other issues like protected seats for schools and educational institutions can then be debated and discussed with appropriate authorities with more 'oomph'.

I am sure there are many of us who hate politics and are constrained by various other factors like living & working away from Nilgiris. But then these are unusual times calling for unusual tactics and wisdom and I am sure we can help in our own ways. To quote one of my teachers,'there is no impossible task but only a challenging job', summarises this situation perfectly.
Again comments & suggestions welcome,
Best Wishes
Dr K.Rajkumar
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
deva_mathan
Frequent poster


Joined: 31 Dec 1998
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Unfortunately, as the philosopher Socrates quotes, ..." Politics is the last resort of Scoundrals".. Another saying is ...Politics is the second oldest profession, very much the same as the first profession..."

A few exceptions in the modern day poilitics are Dr Manmohan Singh, APJ Kalam and few selective others were head count is easy. It is not a place where most of us hate/dreaded to step in, san the opportunity.

As a latest example, Rs 1 Lakh was to be shelved by a poor chap to get a job of bus conductor to elected representatives. Under such circumstances, finding a representativs WHO WILL SERVE our community will be far fetched dream, unless there is collective participation.

Merely meeting in the name of Badaga association, and passing resolutions for development, getting SC/ST status will not work.

We must form locally active groups say 3 to 5 in each village. They meet regulary say once in a month and chart out development needs.
This group of local will have leadership amongst themselves as pressure groups to represent needs with Panchayat and Collectors' office level.

Similarly a chain reactions for all needs across the Badaga Hatties

Just a thought!

_________________
Devarajan Mathan-
deva_mathan@yahoo.com
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's websiteYahoo Messenger
balamurali_n
Starter


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

The following article is sort of related to the discussion hope it helps us think in different perspective. If you feel this is breaking the continuity of the disucssion I deeply regret for the inconvenience caused.

Thanks,
Murali

Speech by Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam, President of India

I have three visions for India. In 3000 years of our history people from all over the world have come and invaded us, captured our lands, conquered our minds. From Alexander onwards. The Greeks, the Turks, the Moguls, the Portuguese, the British, the French, the Dutch, all of them came and looted us, took over what was ours. Yet we have not done this to any other nation. We have not conquered anyone. We have not grabbed their land, their culture, their history and tried to enforce our way of life on them. Why? Because we respect the freedom of others. That is why my first vision is that of FREEDOM. I believe that India got its first vision of this in 1857, when we started the war of independence. It is this freedom that we must protect and nurture and build on. If we are not free, no one will respect us.

My second vision for India is DEVELOPMENT.

For fifty years we have been a developing nation. It is time we see ourselves as a developed nation. We are among top 5 nations of the world in terms of GDP. We have 10 percent growth rate in most areas. Our poverty levels are falling. Our achievements are being globally recognized today. Yet we lack the self-confidence to see ourselves as a developed nation, self-reliant and self-assured. Isn't this incorrect?

I have a THIRD vision.

India must stand up to the world. Because I believe that unless India stands up to the world, no one will respect us. Only strength respects strength. We must be strong not only as a military power but also as an economic power. Both must go hand-in-hand. My good fortune was to have worked with three great minds. Dr. Vikram Sarabhai of the Dept. of space, Professor Satish Dhawan, who succeeded him and Dr. Brahm Prakash, father of nuclear material. I was lucky to have worked with all three of them closely and consider this the great opportunity of my life.

I see four milestones in my career: ONE: Twenty years I spent in ISRO. I was given the opportunity to be the project director for India's first satellite launch vehicle, SLV3. The one that launched Rohini. These years played a very important role in my life of Scientist.

TWO: After my ISRO years, I joined DRDO and got a chance to be the part of India's missile program. It was my second bliss when Agni met its mission requirements in 1994.

THREE: The Dept. of Atomic Energy and DRDO had this tremendous partnership in the recent nuclear tests, on May 11 and 13. This was the third bliss. The joy of participating with my team in these nuclear tests and proving to the world that India can make it, that we are no longer a developing nation but one of them. It made me feel very proud as an Indian. The fact that we have now developed for Agni a re-entry structure, for which we have developed this new material. A Very light material called carbon-carbon.

FOUR: One day an orthopedic surgeon from Nizam Institute of Medical Sciences visited my laboratory. He lifted the material and found it so light that he took me to his hospital and showed me his patients. There were these little girls and boys with heavy metallic calipers weighing over three kg. each, dragging their feet around. He said to me: Please remove the pain of my patients. In three weeks, we made these Floor reaction Orthosis 300 gram calipers and took them to the orthopedic centre. The children didn't believe their eyes. From dragging around a three kg. load on their legs, they could now move around! Their parents had tears in their eyes. That was my fourth bliss!

Why is the media here so negative? Why are we in India so embarrassed to recognize our own strengths, our achievements? We are such a great nation. We have so many amazing success stories but we refuse to acknowledge them. Why? We are the first in milk production. We are number one in Remote sensing satellites. We are the second largest producer of wheat. We are the second largest producer of rice. Look at Dr. Sudarshan, he has transferred the tribal village into a self-sustaining, self-driving unit. There are millions of such achievements but our media is only obsessed in the bad news and failures and disasters.

I was in Tel Aviv once and I was reading the Israeli newspaper. It was the day after a lot of attacks and bombardments and deaths had taken place. The Hamas had struck. But the front page of the newspaper had the picture of a Jewish gentleman who in five years had transformed his desert land into an orchid and a granary. It was this inspiring picture that everyone woke up to. The gory details of killings, bombardments, deaths, were inside in the newspaper, buried among other news. In India we only read about death, sickness, terrorism, crime. Why are we so NEGATIVE? Another question: Why are we, as a nation so obsessed with foreign things? We want foreign TVs, we want foreign shirts. We want foreign technology. Why this obsession with everything imported. Do we not realize that self-respect comes with self-reliance?

I was in Hyderabad giving this lecture, when a 14 year old girl asked me for my autograph. I asked her what her goal in life is: She replied: I want to live in a developed India. For her, you and I will have to build this developed India. You must proclaim. India is not an under-developed nation; it is a highly developed nation.

Allow me to come back with vengeance. Got 10 minutes for your country?

YOU say that our government is inefficient. YOU say that our laws are too old. YOU say that the municipality does not pick up the garbage. YOU say that the phones don't work, the railways are a joke, the airline is the worst in the world, mails never reach their destination. YOU say that our country has been fed to the dogs and is the absolute pits. YOU say, say and say.

What do YOU do about it? Take a person on his way to Singapore. Give him a name - YOURS. Give him a face - YOURS. YOU walk out of the airport and you are at your International best. In Singapore you don't throw cigarette butts on the roads or eat in the stores. YOU are as proud of their Underground Links as they are. You pay $5 (approx. Rs. 60) to drive through Orchard Road (equivalent of Mahim Causeway or Pedder Road) between 5 PM and 8 PM.

YOU comeback to the parking lot to punch your parking ticket if you have over stayed in a restaurant or a shopping mall irrespective of your status identity. In Singapore you don't say anything, DO YOU? YOU wouldn't dare to eat in public during Ramadan, in Dubai. YOU would not dare to go out without your head covered in Jeddah. YOU would not dare to buy an employee of the telephone exchange in London at 10 pounds (Rs. 650) a month to, "see to it that my STD and ISD calls are billed to someone else." YOU would not dare to speed beyond 55 mph (88 kph) in Washington and then tell the traffic cop, "Jaanta hai sala main kaun hoon (Do you know who I am?). I am so and so's son. Take your two bucks and get lost." YOU wouldn't chuck an empty coconut shell anywhere other than the garbage pail on the beaches in Australia and New Zealand. Why don't YOU spit Paan on the streets of Tokyo? Why don't YOU use examination jockeys or buy fake certificates in Boston? We are still talking of the same YOU. YOU who can respect and conform to a foreign system in other countries but cannot in your own. You who will throw papers and cigarettes on the road the moment you touch Indian ground. If you can be an involved and appreciative citizen in an alien country why cannot you be the same here in India.

Once in an interview, the famous Ex-municipal commissioner of Bombay Mr.Tinaikar had a point to make. "Rich people's dogs are walked on the streets to leave their affluent droppings all over the place," he said. "And then the same people turn around to criticize and blame the authorities for inefficiency and dirty pavements. What do they expect the officers to do? Go down with a broom every time their dog feels the pressure in his bowels? In America every dog owner has to clean up after his pet has done the job. Same in Japan. Will the Indian citizen do that here?" He's right. We go to the polls to choose a government and after that forfeit all responsibility. We sit back wanting to be pampered and expect the government to do everything for us whilst our contribution is totally negative. We expect the government to clean up but we are not going to stop chucking garbage all over the place nor are we going to stop to pick a up a stray piece of paper and throw it in the bin. We expect the railways to provide clean bathrooms but we are not going to learn the proper use of bathrooms. We want Indian Airlines and Air India to provide the best of food and toiletries but we are not going to stop pilfering at the least opportunity. This applies even to the staff who is known not to pass on the service to the public. When it comes to burning social issues like those related to women, dowry, girl child and others, we make loud drawing room protestations and continue to do the reverse at home. Our excuse? "It's the whole system which has to change, how will it matter if I alone forego my sons' rights to a dowry." So who's going to change the system? What does a system consist of? Very conveniently for us it consists of our neighbors, other households, other cities, other communities and the government. But definitely not me and YOU. When it comes to us actually making a positive contribution to the system we lock ourselves along with our families into a safe cocoon and look into the distance at countries far away and wait for a Mr. Clean to come along & work miracles for us with a majestic sweep of his hand. Or we leave the country and run away. Like lazy cowards hounded by our fears we run to America to bask in their glory and praise their system. When New York becomes insecure we run to England. When England experiences unemployment, we take the next flight out to the Gulf. When the Gulf is war struck, we demand to be rescued and brought home by the Indian government. Everybody is out to abuse and rape the country. Nobody thinks of feeding the system. Our conscience is mortgaged to money.

Dear Indians, The article is highly thought inductive, calls for a great deal of introspection and pricks one's conscience too....I am echoing J.F. Kennedy's words to his fellow Americans to relate to Indians.....

"ASK WHAT WE CAN DO FOR INDIA AND DO WHAT HAS TO BE DONE TO MAKE INDIA WHAT AMERICA AND OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE TODAY"

View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
sivakumar_jm
Occasional poster


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Dear Mathan,

I am very glad that you have taken the effort to help others, and based on your responses ..I see that everyone haven't used that constructively. ..

But let us not bring our personal experience with one single person or friend or family into the topic which we are discussing here. This discussion applies to the whole community and not our personal experience.


1. Are more people in need of help or not ?

My answer is YES..

We can make a headcount of badages of how many are unemployed and that should answer the question ?

2. Is the community currently helping others who are in need of help ?

My answer is NO.

Let us not bring the personal expericnce into picture here, , this has nothing to do with the benefit of getting SC/ST status. Those who personally help others can always continue to help.

3. Are there benefits of getting SC/ST status ?

Again, My answer is YES.

Lets not bring other stories (success stories blah blah) here into picture, as its not going to help practically ...

We need to move on and I think based on current situation of the community, it will greatly beneit the community if we raise above caste feelings and get the SC/ST status.

Thank you,
Siva
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailYahoo MessengerMSN Messenger
deva_mathan
Frequent poster


Joined: 31 Dec 1998
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Dear Mr Siva,

I amnot sure if my responses were taken in offensive tone. I clarify once again it is not offensive.

Here are my thoughts :

We cannot help enmasse. It is always one at a time OR selective few based on jobs/helps needed. Sure people will need help. But there should be barest minimum criteria of seeking help, leave aside monetary need of the poor.

I am bringing personal experience only as example. It does not represent enmasse. But a trend only.

I am not sure what you refer to succees stories Blah.. blahh..

Well, if that is your opinion I do not debate. I am sure, people who want to succeed do their part and are ready to face failure.

So far I managed to get jobs to 5 persons who approached me. None of them are known to me. They came to me thro some one else. Couple of cases, I could not.

There is no question of 'STATUS' feeling. Pl my posts again, I am not against SC/ST status. I only opine.. the help will be less. say in about 1.7 Lakhs badagas' only selective few will get jobs, which again I am wooried, will not be a good job.

It is better to till our land than pay a bribe of 2 lakhs to get a government job for 3000 Rs/ at the age of 40. A Bus conductor/Driver tend to drink [ NOT ALL OF THEM] mostly because of body fatigue after continnus travel OR staying outside their residence.

All my thoughts need not be taken personally. I am quoting few for digesting and further thoughts.

_________________
Devarajan Mathan-
deva_mathan@yahoo.com
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's websiteYahoo Messenger
l_santhosh
Frequent poster


Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Our Wing Commander says:
"For the larger good of the community, Badagas should get the ST status for the benefits available are too many to go into detail."

Siva supports that. He also says:
As our own people are not helping the needy within our community, "Let us have the ST status, so that the ones who are in need of help, will atleast get the help from the government".

In response to that, Deva says:
The benefits will be less and so "we should upgrade our skills to whatever extent is possible".
If I've understood correctly, he also says getting that status will degrade our thinking level and follows it with: "In this rate, we will not be able to gover ourself."

Dr. Rajkumar says:
"My arguments calls for a change in attitude than caste status". And further states that "...but we shouldn't blame the lack of it for our poor growth, economy and wellbeing".

Balamurali's quoting of one of President Kalam's earlier speeches could not have been more relevant. Bala's view, I'm sure, is: "Don't bother about the ST status. Just work hard".

I think we are missing one crucial point here. Who is going to benefit if we get the ST status?
If Badagas as a whole get the ST status, there will be some seats reserved, say for example, in educational institutions.

Who is competing for those seats? A student who has studied 12th standard in one of Coimbatore's elite schools? Defintely yes.
And a student who has studied in a government school(with abysmal infrastructure) in the remotest parts of Nilgiris. Right?

Who will be able to put his son/ daughter in an elite Coimbatore school? Of course, it is the wealthy - wards of Doctors, Engineers, Government officers, the estate owners, etc.

Who has more chance of making it to the best(and least costing) colleges?
The answer is: the student who studied in the elite school. And who is that? He/ she is the child of the wealthy.
And what about the other student who studied in the village school? She will continue to till the fields!!

Doddavakka, Kunnavakka ellarugu, naa hegodhu enandhalae(aah!! doesn't that sound flattering? Only if it were more comfortable - for me to write and for you to read),

This has been the case in the whole of India in the past half a century since the concept of reservation was introduced.
This is the reason why the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.
So I am more in line with Dr. Rajkumar's and Bala's views quoted above.

More to follow...after knowing your thoughts!! icon_smile.gif

n.b.:
While we debate at length such an important topic, it's important that we learn something from it. I mean, we should be inclined to change the way we think to accomodate different (preferably broader) perspectives. Otherwise, we will be wasting time. That's an humble idea.
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mailVisit poster's websiteYahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:       
Post new topic Reply to topic

View next topic
View previous topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB All times are GMT - 7 Hours